Podcast Episode 29: The Entrepreneur Mindset in a Corporate World

Fintan Costello: [00:00:00] if you've been doing marketing in the gambling industry and you've tried to use Google or Meta TikTok, or name the platform name, the ad network or the platform. There's so many rules, restrictions, things you can't do.

Extra policies. No, no. You don't get access to all of these tools. And so you end up very limited in terms of what you can do, which makes you, forces you to be creative​

lots of things outside of the industry where it's just like, oh, this is super easy and these people wouldn't last 10 minutes. in the casino SERPs

people around. what are you doing? What are you doing? And Ken's like, well, I was thinking of like. Getting a horse out of an airplane and we'll kind of brand the parachute and we'll land it in the middle of the racetrack and everybody's like, oh, okay. Yeah, that, I'm like, how was this even a thing?

Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry.

I'm your host, Leo Judkins and as an ex iGaming Director turned Performance Coach, I've worked with over 200 [00:01:00] leaders from companies like Entain, bet365, Flutter and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance

In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same.

So with that being said, let's dive in.

Leo: Hello everybody. Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast. Super excited to have you all here. Today's guest, um, is Fintan Costello. And I'm Fintan. I'm so excited to have you here. You've got one of the most exciting journeys, I think in gaming. Going from Patties to Google to, you know, uh, start finding your own business, selling that and now coming back as a, you know, on a board is just a tremendous journey and something that a lot of people will be looking at and going, wow.

Um, that's something that I aspire to as well. So, uh, really excited to talk to you today. We'll talk through that journey and we'll talk through some of the challenges that you've gone through, uh, some of the [00:02:00] lessons and, um, yeah, really excited to have you here, mate.

Fintan Costello: About time. It's about time you invited me. I'm just gonna throw that out there now 'cause it's been a while. I've been sitting here waiting, hitting refresh. Leo's gonna ask me at some point and uh, clearly you've run out of the rest of the industry and now we're just scraping the barrel and Oh, we'll make, get fining in,

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Understand.

Leo: I'm so glad you're here. Right. I, I actually should have asked you earlier, and I think what I have, I dunno how it, why that didn't work out, but you're here now and what I wanted to start with Finton is actually something that you said on your podcast with John.

think it was on an episode that you did with, uh, with Mark Smith where you, where you said, where you talked about, um, I. Innocent bystanders, civilians, you call them, right? People outside civilians, people outside of the industry.

And I'd love to talk a little bit about that because I think most of us in gaming really recognize that, like how difficult it actually is for outsiders to come in, and how much they struggle. But, but where does that come from in your mind and what are some of your experiences with outsiders coming in and, and the [00:03:00] struggles they face?

Fintan Costello: thing is, right, it's not like that the industry's unique or not like, oh, we're so special. Duh. It's, I think there's, It is a very entrepreneurial industry, and there's a, there's a default level of aggression in terms of how people run their businesses. That's way beyond other industries. Or a lot of other industries like coming from a, from a marketing background, like a really good example is if you've been doing marketing in the gambling industry and you've tried to use Google or Meta TikTok, or name the platform name, the the ad network or the platform. There's so many rules, restrictions, things you can't do.

Extra policies. No, no. You don't get access to all of these tools. And so you end up very limited in terms of what you can do, which makes you, forces you to be creative, forces you to like push those systems to be absolute limit

Yeah.

Of what you're allowed [00:04:00] to, and then say flip. Like I, I worked for a, for a financial trading company, um, for a while. Who didn't have any of those restrictions. Like it was just like the full, all the toys is, was how I, I, how I thought of it. And then looking at say the, that marketing team and people coming from like, like a lot of people on my team who were like ex travel and they were really, really good, but they were so excited about the new stuff and the toys. weren't getting the basics. And I think in the gambling industry we're really, really good. In a lot of ways of just getting the basics to like the 99% because we just don't have access to the toys. And I think the, the flip side of it is when you take someone from, who's just grown up to doing marketing in the gambling industry and you put them somewhere else, a little bit overwhelming or there's a lot of like data kind of there, there's a lot of gaps in their knowledge in terms of the tools and the data and the, and the codes and stuff.

So I always think it was put. In other ways, like I'm, you know, doing stuff outside the industry, just so much easier. It feels like cheating and

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: It's [00:05:00] like, it's just like, oh. This, This, works extremely well. Um, and none of my competitors are like doing, huh, that's interesting. Maybe we should go even harder. Um, so I'm seeing lots of things outside of the industry where it's just like, oh, this is super easy and these people wouldn't last 10 minutes. in the casino SERPs or like, just like of this, so the, the, the mindset I kind of use is civilians and,

know, just, yeah. It's a, or phrase I've been using a lot lately is taking, it's like taking a tank to a knife fight. Is kind of how I'm seeing a lot of things, uh, which is, which is actually fun and just refreshing and oh my God,

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: It's just nice to have it easy for a while. which, you know, I think I've, yeah, it's so, yeah. Civilians is just outside of the industry is very different and not ready for us.

Leo: I remember on one of our coaching calls, you said you, you had a story about, um, somebody who was [00:06:00] talking about like kind of brand marketing and how, you know, in, in other industries, obviously you have maybe one or two campaigns a year and you've got all this time to plan for it, right? And you kind of, and you launch it.

And then in in gaming, sports betting casino, that there is something every single time. There is just literally no time to breathe, rethink, recalibrate. You just gotta keep on going.

Fintan Costello: it's particularly sportsbook, where it's so event driven and there's always an event and there's always the next event I. if you miss that event, and even if you just take like the Premier Leagues or like a Champions League season or Premier League season or something like that, even just like the matchup this weekend, this could be a big weekend or a pretty quiet weekend, and so you're always on

Leo: Yeah,

Fintan Costello: There is, there is no like, oh, let's spend six months planning 2026. That just that luxury doesn't exist. Some companies I've seen do a really good job where they actually split their marketing team between long-term brand planning and tactical, kind of BAU planning, which I thought was [00:07:00]

Leo: it's a great idea.

Fintan Costello: It if you've

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: The resources to do that.

Uh,

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: Big company. companies, you know, it's a small marketing team, and, and as well there there is this element of, particularly in this kind of very social media led landscape where. Planning six months out actually becomes, or 12 months out becomes impossible because everything's changed in 12 months. Like a, a a three year forecast in the gambling industry is bullshit because

Leo: Yes.

Fintan Costello: Many, so much will change product, regulatory, just those two things alone, let alone kind of consumer sentiment or whatever. So it it, it is a, it is a tough industry for that.

Leo: Makes a lot of sense. So, hey, how was that for you when you first en entered the industry? Were you, uh, were you a civilian going, oh my God, what's going on here? Uh, how, what did that look like for you?

Fintan Costello: yeah, I think there's, there's kind of two people in the gambling industry. There's people who kind of stumbled into it by mistake, Yeah.

The third generation bookie or something like that. Yeah.

My grandfather used to work the [00:08:00] racetrack with a chalkboard and I learned the tic-tac when I was six, and I've been punted since I was seven.

Right. So it was kind of the two, the two groups. And I was very much in the other group of like. You know, I placed a couple of bets. I wasn't like, I've done some World Cup stuff and whatever. I had a vague notion of what Shelton it was. so I remember like when I was interviewing with Paddy Power back, I. God must be 20 plus years ago now. like Dummies, guide to betting, I was reading the ra, I read the racing post every day for like two weeks beforehand, before the interview and like just, you know, I was on the website gambling, just placing bets watching. So I really have to just get up to speed very quickly. And I had a little bit of a poker background, so I kind of understood. That element of which I think poker's a very good gateway to the gambling industry in terms of just understanding betting, gambling, plus tv, like a lot of the concepts are, are

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: so like a lot of people I think in the industry like poker was the, the gateway, Which was interesting.

So it was definitely a rollercoaster and I think as [00:09:00] well. In hindsight, looking back and I was talking to Ken Robertson on the podcast a few months ago, I was dropped into like one of the best marketing teams. Ever. Right. So you had, this was paddy power, or early, early online pad power when they were really making a dent in the, starting to make a dent in the uk.

And you had the likes of Barney Evans, who was the CMO, you had Ken Robertson, who famously became like the, the head of mischief

and All the crazy stumps and the PR stuff and things like this. And I was the, I was part of the online team and I was the, the digital guy. And. You know, start, it was first time Patty was really kind of trying to join up all the crazy online, offline stuff with online. Journeys and it, it was like joining Seal Team six, but like, I'm just like the nerd in the corner. Like I wasn't

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Team six, but I, you know, the, somebody's gotta make the sandwiches right. Um, [00:10:00] it like, I remember like the first like grand national planning meeting. I was, I was telling Ken about that.

He's like, I've no, no recollection of that. And Barney walks in, he's like, right, what's everyone doing? And Barney's says, maze, the CEO of sports bet in Australia and stuff. But he was like, ex like news international and like, just no bullshit. Fucking, let's get it done. Really good guy. Super smart. he goes like, just point people around.

What are you doing? What are you doing? And Ken's like, well, I was thinking of like. Getting a horse out of an airplane and we'll kind of brand the parachute and we'll land it in the middle of the racetrack and everybody's like, oh, okay. Yeah, that, I'm like, I'm sitting there going like, how was this even a thing? obviously no horses were hurt in the, in the making of that stunt. They ended up being, but it, but it was kind of seeing like, okay, look, let's, let's brainstorm and then like we'll refine the ideas we introduce it to. It was actually, it's a really, it was a really good learning experience of like, it's a crazy idea. Rather than just shooting it down and saying, that's a fucking stupid idea. Like,

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Crucified [00:11:00] by like a, we can't do that to a horse. And then b, the negative publicity, it morphed into one of the jockeys doing it right. Um, and things like, so you see a lot of this kind of stuff. You're like, huh, wow, okay.

That, that's how that works. Um, so as a digital marketing guy, I'd never seen like real, what I would deem real marketing. Before, and learning and, and then you just get caught up in the bud, like your first cheltham, like just the buzz in the office was just, 'cause like a lot of the lads in the office were like just proper punters.

Like there was so much money just among the staff riding on

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Business. Um, and you do kind of get caught up in it and I think you either embrace it or it's just not for you and just kind of. Two ways. And you know, I'm, I'm competitive. I enjoyed the challenge. It's tough. Um, know, your competitors are smart, they're working hard as well.

It's like, it's not a, so you gotta bring your A game. And if you can, you can outperform other smart people, then you've done a really good job. So that, that [00:12:00] was kind of the, the buzz and the, the addiction for me was just kicking ass basically.

Leo: Yeah. I love that. That's, I think that's really describes you very well actually. that kind of environment, right? Where you, where you just have to work hard and it's not really about, it's not really about standing at the top and going, look at me, look at me.

That's not who you are. It's more about. You just, you just wanna prove to yourself that you, you know that you're just gonna do it and you are, you, you thrive in those competitive environments. Is that, is that something, I mean, is that something that's always been like that? I know you mentioned that your dad's been a real example for you for always work, you know, having really strong work ethic.

Um, is it something that you've always had?

Fintan Costello: yeah, I, I think I've always been competitive. I think there's some people who are like competitive about everything. like, just like, I dunno, sim, like who's getting to the elevator first type stuff, right. So

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: I'm not like that I choose to compete because I think, because I know when I choose to compete, it's,

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: [00:13:00] In, like, there's no like, how, like, okay, this is this total war kind of thing.

Right? This is happening. so I, I can turn it on and off is I think probably one of the, you know. Big difference. Like, uh, you know, the famous Michael Jordan documentary, right? Like he was competitive over everything, right?

Leo: Yes.

Fintan Costello: Absolutely everything. That's how he lived his life. I'm not like that. but I think a part of it, I think is there's a, there's a level of competitiveness and there's also, I, I enjoy building So, like, they, in startup land, they talk about like, getting from zero to one is the

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: Getting that like first sale, first customer, dollar, things like that is, is the hardest thing to do and I, I love that. Right?

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Taking an idea and like, okay, how can I make this work? I. And I'm addicted to that. Like, that's success. I think when, like, if you look at my cv, it's, it's been a lot of like getting fix shit. And then [00:14:00] once it becomes like business as usual, I just lose interest on to the next thing.

So it, it is that, you know, let's make stuff happen. Let's make change, let's do stuff. And then like when it's, you know, and then you know when it's okay, this is all working now. There's a good system, there's an amazing team in place. know, adios. So I'm off today, off to the next challenge. But yeah, I've, I've always been competitive.

Um, doesn't mean like I've always succeeded or like I've, you know,

Leo: No. No.

Fintan Costello: No trophies at home. There's no, like, you know, oh, I have like a wall full of medals and I was this, and I was that, like, nothing like that. But there was a definitely a, a, a quiet determination to just get shit done.

Leo: I love it. Hey, and also if you look at, on the outside companies that you've worked for, right? Pads, stars, Google, they, you'd say that they're from the outside. They're very different companies at very different stages. I. Where that wouldn't necessarily be true what you just said, right? About like fixing something that's already there.

But with, at Google [00:15:00] for example, you really led that whole, you know, that whole, um, gaming vertical and getting that, getting that all set up. So, so what we're like, I think it's, it's so brilliant what you've done, right? From, from parties to stars to, To then to, uh, to Google and then to bonus fund. Like how, like what was, what was that decision for you?

Like going, setting up bonus fund, founding that, and, um, going from a kind of more of a, I suppose, corporate environment into some, doing something for yourself. I,

Fintan Costello: I think that the, there's a couple of things. It's, I, I've always been an entrepreneur, right? So right.

Paddy Power, like I had my own companies, completely, they, like, we had a, a data center cleaning business. I. and I was selling cable grommets and I, the, there was a business, like in Ireland at the time, there was a property boom.

So like there was a business doing, snag lists. So people buying your new house, you. Tell the builder everything that's broken or wrong and he fixes it to fix it. so I had like lots of [00:16:00] other stuff before that and I built websites and things. And so, uh, I think I, I've always flipped between, being an entrepreneur and then the corporate.

And I think the, the, the differences is sometimes the corporate job is just a bit of a break.

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Being an entrepreneur, being the boss is, and you know, the, like, particularly as, as you've got staff and stuff, or when you get staff. you've gotta worry about payroll, right? I've, I've put payroll on a credit card.

Yep. You've got to send out the invoices, chase the invoices, deal with the accountants, sort the VA returns, the coffee machine is broken. such and such said something mean to somebody. Like, everything's your problem. Like, there's no, like, when you flip to a corporate environment, oh, the coffee machine's broken. Facilities will take care of that. They're brilliant. Or I like, you didn't have to worry about the money in the banking. There's an I'm gonna get paid, like, it's fine. And so there's, there is kind of like a mental break from some of those kind of things, which I quite enjoyed. then, but even, even in the corporates, [00:17:00] like, think, I never thought of it. I, never sat there and went, oh, I'm an employee. I always sat there and, and thought, okay. I'm running this thing, whatever it is, I'm gonna treat it like it's my business and do the best I can. So I always took ownership and responsible or tri take ownership and responsibility and just like pushed things forward. And part of like. Part of that was, would've then been the clash of like, infant, and there is a hierarchy and you like, stop. And, you know, so I had to learn a few things along the way. Um, particularly in my twenties, too much energy. there was definitely, I, I, I never really saw the difference, apart from like not having to worry about the coffee machine or payroll. really saw the difference between the two. And I, I've always treated it as it like. I have to run this like it's my own little business. And then end up make, because you do that, you end up, I think making the better long-term decisions so you're not optimizing for keeping your boss happy this week you're [00:18:00] optimizing.

Okay. This is really gonna transform things over time. And I think

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: When you kind of list the companies and stuff as well, like also just a massive element of like right place, right time.

Just early digital marketing, nobody really understood, say Ads or SEO or. Digital, like, stuff like that.

So just being like, back today, like I, I, the job I got at Paddy Power, like I was head of online marketing. Like there's, they, they wouldn't hire me today for that job, right? I

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: you know, setting up that team and kind of like the first proper centralized online marketing team at, at DY Power. Like just no experience in the gambling industry. Like just, I was there because of my entrepreneurial background, which is

Leo: yeah.

Fintan Costello: Like when you look at the people in the company at that time, they've all gone on to do like amazing stuff.

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Of entrepreneurial talent in paddy power at that time phenomenal. I just, you know, caught the right wave of digital [00:19:00] marketing is a growing thing. I'm pretty good at it. I'm better than most and I'm willing to put the hours into perfect the craft and that kind of like. The relationship, say with Google, while I was at Paddy Power is what ended up getting me the Google job.

And there was so much serendipity and stuff as well of just good timing and, and things like this as well. So, there was a massive element of luck. it's also context as well. Like I graduated into an economic boom, right?

Leo: Hmm.

Fintan Costello: Into an economic boom versus graduating into a recession. end up like the, the maths show, your trajectory. Ends up being two very different

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: So even from just simple stuff like that of like deep my year of graduation, um, was incredibly lucky as opera, like things are growing online business, just, just by holding on. You'd have had a great career when I joined. so it's, I'm kind of aware of that element too, of if we do the Monte Carlo [00:20:00] simulation of this, do we end up in the same place? Maybe? but there's definitely a ton of scenarios where I don't, I.

Leo: Yeah, but it's like a lot of it is, I know, I know what you're saying. And a lot of successful people say that, and, and of course there's truth to it. But look, it's also a mindset, right? It's also your work ethics. It's also the, your, like your approach to business. It's your appetite for risk. It's your, like, one of the things I'd love to touch on is what at poker strategy when I was, I was there when I, I first started in, in, in poker, we called them intrapreneurs.

You know, people that would work inside of a business and that's really what you are talking about, right? Entrepreneurship, people that feel a lot of ownership in their role. And I also see with all those guys that I used to work with, they've gone on to massive careers. Right? And that's kind of what you are talking about, with your team at Pat's.

So. Like, what do you think about businesses hiring for that? What are some of the, what are some of the underlying characteristics or skills or, uh, should you even have entrepreneurs or should you have just a workforce that [00:21:00] executes where, where, what, what are, what's your thinking on that?

Fintan Costello: the best career advice I ever got, uh, was from my boss at Patty Power Cormack, and I was hiring for my first, I was hiring somebody for the team and

he said, Finton, just make sure you hire somebody that's better than you, because if there's nobody, if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted.

okay. When you say it like that, that's a really good way to put it. Um, and so I, I always think of it like that, right? Yeah.

I, um, can they do today's job? Can they do, can they grow with the business for the future? and it is that kind of client like hiring for attitude or hiring for. and I resonate with people who just get shit done, and

Ownership and, and crack on is kind of like, like, I must say crack on like times a week. Yeah. Just crack

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: This right. so I, I would personally prefer that because it's how I'd like to be treated.

and it is one of those, like, you learn more from the bad bosses than the good bosses.

Leo: Okay.

Fintan Costello: I'll [00:22:00] just do the opposite of what that guy did. Um,

Easy. It's just a, it is such an easy framework to use. so for me, I, I prefer who take ownership. I'm definitely not a micromanager, like, just kick ass and do it better than me please. And I'll be super happy. is my preference so I, I try and put more, I, I overindex on interviewing hiring. so really putting the time and effort into it, it's better. The, the short term pain of not having a, of having a vacancy is much better than hiring the wrong person.

And putting the time into hiring the right people is super important because letting people go is, you know, that's awful and nobody wants to do that, and you'll always drag it on too long.

And it, it's taking that pain, hiring slowly. well within re like, not, not hiring, like dragging out for six months and 50 interviews, [00:23:00] but being very deliberate in terms of what you're looking for. And I've got a very structured interview process, where I'm deliberately testing, for different, different characteristics. so that, that's super, I think, yeah, my, my preference, but like, everyone's got their own, I, I, everyone's. Everyone's got their own preference, right? There is the people who, they're not micromanaging, they feel lost and stuff like that as well. And some people need that. And I think you've gotta make sure, like if you've got an entrepreneurial, like I've, I've had it at one company I worked at where, you know, I've made a mistake a few times where there was people who just really needed the play.

Just gimme the playbook and I'll execute it.

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: Of place where you had to write the playbook.

Leo: Hmm.

Fintan Costello: Who who were happy to be given a blank, you know, just figure this out and make it work, people who didn't and were more used to a structured big company, tab A goes into slop B, really struggled and that was a big

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: Like, oh, there is different pe.

[00:24:00] People themselves have different preferences and being aware of that. Is kind of like, okay, here's how we can refine the interview process to kind of screen for this and really understand their drivers, just about what we want. and making sure that there's that kind of cultural fit. I think was, uh, that, that, that was a big lesson. Big, big

Leo: yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Hey, um, Finton, you talked, uh, about kind of making all of the mistakes and perfectionism and some of the, some of the difficulties you've had with that. Right. Can you talk a little bit to that and how that's shown up into, in these different roles that you've had?

Fintan Costello: oh, look, I've made all the mistakes, right? Um, for sure.

Leo: reason why I'm asking Ham, just to clarify right, is because I think so many people, they, they, they look at it from the outside and they see, you know, you've sold Bonus Finder to gambling.com, right? Really successful. Um, people see success from the outside and don't understand. Very often don't see what's underneath that.

Right. All of the challenges, all of [00:25:00] the, the dark moments and the thoughts and the, and all of the mistakes, like you said, right. That, that we go through. So I'd just love to talk about that a little bit because I think it's something that's, uh, is just important for people to know that it's not just a Cinderella story, you know?

Fintan Costello: I I think a really good example, right? So the, the day we'd, we'd signed and announced the, the sale of, of bonus finder, on paper should be like the happiest day. Of your life kind of thing, right? It's like, oh my God, this is like a lifetime achievement.

This is amazing. I was so tired and exhausted. I had a can of Guinness, not even a pint, a can of Guinness, and went to bed. like, you know it. And then, but on the same day, my son got into the, my son's a competitive Mario Kar racer.

And he got into the Benelux Cup. So this is Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg Championships, and it was a Nintendo.

We got an, he got an official email from Nintendo that he's made the, the Benelux Cup finals, right Top 10 in Benelux. I was [00:26:00] more excited about that as a dad. Right. and I think just the sheer exhaustion of just legal and due diligence and getting a deal over the line and. Making sure everyone's happy and, and all that kinda stuff was, was huge. and you know, and like weeks later, Putin invades Ukraine

Leo: Mm-hmm.

Fintan Costello: Crashes, right?

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Timing, like if things had been delayed. You know, it would've been a completely different deal, right? If the

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: ending, things like this. So yeah, it, it's, look, it, it's, there's a classic one, like everyone sees the highlights real, nobody sees the

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: You know, bonus finder when you look at it was a, and like I was nominated the, the public face of the business. 'cause I'm the loud mouth Irish guy who talks too much. but there was a phenomenal team behind the scenes who prefer to remain fairly private and, and anonymous behind the scenes. I, I was one of many people who played a part in that. Like I [00:27:00] wasn't, you know, I, I didn't found the business.

I wasn't the, the. you know, there was a lot of people doing a lot of stuff

Leo: Yes, yes,

Fintan Costello: all killers, right? There was no civilians in this group. that had been a project, like if you kind of, if I trace back the, the genealogy of it, like the original bonus finder website would've been about eight years old. By the time we sold, so that's like eight years of grinding, like

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: The, like just building the site, getting a first page, making the first sale, the first FTD, like all of those things over time, like eight years of just like consistency and doing the really boring, not sexy stuff of just like. Getting it right every day. And particularly if we focus on the affiliate stuff, like being an affiliate is probably one of the most brutal, tough jobs out there because you eat what you kill. So every day you gotta pick up your spear and go out and hunt buffalo or whatever, mammoths or whatever. there's an unlimited [00:28:00] number of other affiliates out there trying to. know, take the rankings and outrank you on, on, say, Google if you're doing SEO or whatever it's you're doing. affiliate managers love you when you have traffic and they won't answer the phone if you don't have traffic. And so there's no real I. Friendships. Alright, they'll be your best mate. And oh, we're gonna do this.

We're gonna go to the football and here's some champagne and stuff. And then you get hit with something negative and then it's tumbleweed, right? So

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: Brutal, uh, journey. And, and it's never a straight line. It's never like, I'm here. This was the end straight line buff. Nailed it. There's the peaks and troughs and everything.

You know, the zigzags and the things that working things didn't work. And that's. Just, you know, there's no, look. It's always hard work. It's never easy. There's no, there's there,

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: There is no get rich quick. There is no get a six pack and six, like none of these things. It's always the same boring answer of just consistency over time. the right stuff, dealing with the negative things, not get calorie away, not getting carried away when [00:29:00] things are going really well and just relentless execution every affiliate I know. done the exact same thing. so yeah, it's, it's like it worked out, but, you know, if Google could have changed something and it didn't work out right, there was no real, you know, um, we did a lot of the right stuff and we caught a lot of good waves and we, we maximized things and, um, yeah, it, it,

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: the end and we're all very, very grateful, very happy.

Um. And, you know, the, it's all gone. Like, the [email protected] are, are amazing. Um, they're doing really, really good stuff. And yeah, it's, it's all in a great place.

Leo: I love it. And thank you for sharing that because I think that's, it's, it's one of these key things, right? It is just about the hard work. It's about the grinding, it's about getting through the day, it's about the consistency. Um, like how did that work for you? I. In relationship to what you said earlier, Finton, where you said, oh, I just wanna fix stuff, and then kind of then I'm [00:30:00] out again.

Like at Bonus Finder, you must have gone through periods where you just had to keep on going with that consistency. Right. Which is kind of against what you were saying. You see what I mean? Like where you wanna wanna fix something quickly. Like how did that, how did, how was that for you? Because I think that consistency, especially if it's the same thing, day in, day out, is very hard for most people, and especially for someone like you who wants to, you know, find new things and go from zero to one.

Yeah.

Fintan Costello: The classic getting older. you know, I would've been my, in my thirties, have had a kid.

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: I just needed to fucking make this work.

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Like I

Leo: Just show up. Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Have a pension. I was burning through my savings. I was living beyond my means, you know?

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Like there was no like, like it was ride or die.

Um,

Just sheer, just grit your teeth and just keep punching. But I think, yeah, look, the Finton in his thirties and, and versus Finon in his [00:31:00] twenties were two different people. for sure. and yeah, I just, you know, it was, it was the classic like, uh, asset rich, cash poor, and,

Yeah.

You know, every dollar you take out in salary you are, you know, taking away from future growth and things of this.

So everybody was, you know, we weren't. Living a high life in terms of like, business was doing great, but we were constantly just constantly reinvesting in the business. and yeah, it just to make it work. But you know, it's, it's also like when you think of building, it's thinking about in lots of different ways.

Like you can take any project, how do we improve our. Whatever feature or functionality or, uh, the quality of something that we're doing or launching the PR department or, like I, I dunno, just crazy stuff that we did. each of those things are building, right?

Leo: Yeah, of course.

Fintan Costello: And making, so it is all, you always try and look for what you can. that's where I got the satisfaction outta it.

Leo: Hey, and the how, so, so once, once you, once you guys had [00:32:00] sold business, what happened then? What, so you had your kind of, you had your kind of, uh, well, you didn't drink your can of whiskey, it kind of whiskey kind of Guinness. but what's, what, what's happened since? So what was, what were some of the things that you did afterwards and how did your career move on from there?

Fintan Costello: so in a way, the, the, the signing was really the starting gun.

Because we, the, the, the way everything was structured, it was, it was very much about a, an earn out what's called an earn out. So, you know, hitting certain targets and milestones, over the next two years. So it was very much like every morning you wake up thinking, don't fuck this up, don't fuck this

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Which does create its own pressure. and it was also trying to do it in a good way and setting everything up for, for long-term success. And we, we, we, I, I believe we did that and, know, the, we learned a lot from, the gambling.com guys and how they did things and there was a lot of like, just Wow, that, that's really cool. so that was, that was kind of a thing. So, so really it was, it was after the earnout was kind of like the, the moment of. [00:33:00] and that lasted about two weeks, may, maybe even a week, maybe not even two weeks. Um, so that lasted about two weeks. I've gotta do something.

So, I definitely wanted to give gambling a break for a little bit because. been thinking about free spins for a decade kind of thing, right?

That's just, I'll be honest, it's not intellectually stimulating at

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Once you get your head around the initial concept, it's very straightforward. so I, I took a little bit of a break. I then started kind of looking at things, talking to people, you know, I got a lot of inbound. and it was like a lot of like investment opportunities and do this and do that and stuff.

And I kind of made a rule for myself that I'm not smart enough to be an investor. People I think, who have like just the perfect characteristics to be able to invest in the business and make sure. They get a return. I don't have that skill set just yet. so I kind of didn't go down that route. I, knew [00:34:00] somebody who was working on something in the finance with like the, the investing space in the uk. she was brilliant at what, what she does and I was able to help her. Build up that business, build up the team, and like just seeing where they've come in like the last 12 months is just amazing. she was at a big. Influencer conference last night and next week they're, she's comparing the Share Society thing. And so there's just like, it's an amazing journey. It's really a lot of fun it's a completely different space, but it, it kind of rhymes. there's a lot of similarities and so that, that's been a lot of fun.

Um, one of the guys, uh, used to work for me on the PR side of things. He was launching a digital PR agency. Him and him and his, um, longtime business partner. I'm a huge fan of pr. Um, I think. a, it's just fun, right? The idea isn't just fun. but I think it's, it's super crucial for, for digital marketing.

So, so I've got involved with that. Helped the lads out a little bit. Got them, of advice and things, but they're, they're killers and they're kicking ass and, you know, swinging for the fences [00:35:00] already from kind of like. Day one, is brilliant. so j just doing things like that, just, you know, again, it is that kind of, it's more now it's not, trying not to be super hands on and more about what I know rather than how hard I work.

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Got that balance right. For sure. And we've talked about that a lot. Um,

But I think I'm getting there. Uh, monkey learns, so yeah, so do doing things with that. I've, I've put a lot of time and effort into my health and my

Leo: Mm-hmm.

Fintan Costello: So

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: An amazing, fitness coach and nutritionist. massive transfer. Like they were doing like week, like just do comparing photos from like January to like last weekend. Like just huge transformation. Still, still got a way to go. but the, again, consistency, just every day being mindful about a meeting, executing the exercises and stuff was, was key. so things like that. And yeah, so I've been busy, doing things I enjoy and like, which is.

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: That's, that,

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: I think. Um,

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: Not just because I have to pay the bills. [00:36:00] that's the real luxury, right? Being able to pick and choose is, is very nice.

Leo: Yeah. And satisfying your curiosity, right? I think that's just such a, it's such a great way of going about it, and it allows you to, to, you know, to find, just find things that you enjoy. Um, and then recently you joined, um, you joined gambling.com as, uh, non-exec. how's that, that, that must be quite interesting.

Go, you know, from selling to then joining them. Uh, like how, how did that go? How, I dunno how much you can say about it, but I'd love to, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, that conversation and how that's gone him.

Fintan Costello: well, the, the, the way, the way I like to think about it is, and kind of what I'm really happy about is most, so m and a is a really common thing within every industry. when you run the numbers m and a typically fails and doesn't deliver the. The upside and the cost savings and stuff predicted. And typically by the end of it, everybody hates each other. is kind of like statistically what happens.

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: The fact, you know, when we finished, everybody was [00:37:00] happy. the fact that, you know, we all got on and, um, each other and. you know, being invited to a, to apply for the board seat suggest that, you know, we've landed that plane. It was done in a good way.

And so I think that, that, that's a nice, that successfully complete, like, apart from the deal. But if you think of like successfully landing the plane, I think it's a, as big a take on my CV as as anything. And, and again, it was a big team playing a part of that and, two teams played a big part of that. joining the board is, is something, you know, it's a, it's a huge honor. obviously they're Nasdaq listed. It comes with a lot of responsibilities. and I think it's, you know, it's gonna be a lot of fun. Um, they're a great team. Being able to support them, how I can, I'm still a shareholder, is fantastic. yeah, like it's, it's still very early days. You know, I'm still getting, getting up to speed, but I, I think it's, it's gonna be a lot of fun and it's gonna be a, you know, hell of a journey over the next three years or however long it is.

Leo: well done. You, you deserve that. Well done. And, uh, really, uh, really excited for you. Uh, I [00:38:00] want to talk a little bit about, um, the thing that stood out for me the most in working with you over the last, I dunno, year, six months, which is your quote of, or you are saying of big, big energy.

Big, big 2025 energy. So tell me a little bit more about that and, and kind of what that means for you and why that's so important for you.

Fintan Costello: so yeah, so big 2025 energy has become a mantra.

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Was something that, that came to the Christmas 24. I was really tired, um, a lot, been very hands on. And took a couple of weeks off, just closed the laptop. I'm just gonna read sleep and I kind of just slept for like a week and I realized I was doing things so like, you know, finton, you know, it's payroll on the credit card and you've got a hundred bucks.

Make it go as far as you can. So the more you can do. money you're saving and you can push things forward. And the epiphany was just really simple of like, uh, actually you've, you've got options. Finton, we can, you know, there's other ways to solve this. And it's not [00:39:00] just about how many hours you do. bring in great people, you can delegate a lot of stuff. both to the existing team and to, to new hires. There's other ways to solve this. And also I think at a very incremental kind of mindset of just like we slowly build, and then every time we're learning, and then we're very sure of the next step.

And so it, it limits the, the failure rate or like the cost of failing. More importantly, losses. I'm like, oh, actually no, you can, you can swing for the fences. Um, you've, you've got this. Um, being able to just ramp things up, be more aggressive in terms of like planning strategy, resources, has been a lot of fun.

Um. Delegating pretty much everything, has been great. And then frame me up to do the fun stuff, which I'm, I'm really enjoying. so I've been doing that like year effectively. And yeah, like it's, we're at the end of May now as we're recording this, and I. [00:40:00] It's, working. Like, there's a lot of, a lot of positivity, a lot of green shoots, A lot of, the things are like, I, I think of things are like little plants in greenhouses.

So like, there's lots of things green and lots of little pots

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: We can put them outside and, but, but they just need nurturing now. And so we just keep doing that. is, is key and. in, but the big 2025 energy's infectious and

people now also swinging for the fences.

So it's, it's definitely, it's definitely a thing. But I think for me as well, it's, it's what I was joking with a friend of mine who's completely bought into it and we're like, yeah, like 27th, we're still big 2025 energy. Like just right to the end. Right to the end. Let's see how far we can go.

Right. it, look, it, it's more. Just attitude and energy, right? It's,

Leo: exactly.

Fintan Costello: and it, it's the mix of like, okay, it, it's a zoom out. Let's set big ambitious goals. And you know, I always find like, I've done this for like, I'm gonna do this, this, this. These are the things I'm [00:41:00] gonna achieve.

And. At the time, they seemed completely outrageous or like, completely like that, that'd be amazing. And the path's never straight. but over like 12 months, 18 months, 24 months, like, oh, I have actually done all of these things. and that's like, you know, I've, I've been through that multiple times. I think just firing yourself up and putting the big goals out there and what you're gonna achieve is, um. Yeah, it's, it's fun if nothing else, right.

Leo: I love it. Fenton. I, I think it's such a, like, attitude is everything, right? And, um, I think that's, it's so crucial. I think we were talking about it last week with kind of a few things about, parenthood, right? And with Rory, with son, about how. Like you said, a few things that I just wanted to touch on here.

you, you have something called dad day, which I love. I like, I'm so gonna steal that. But also, you know, you are, he's also a competitive swimmer and, you're always there for that. Like, you've gone, you've had such, such an intense career. But you've like, that's, [00:42:00] that's also been a really big priority for you, you know, as being a dad.

So how have, like, what, how difficult have you found it to balance those things and how has that changed over time? How is that now versus how it was in the past? Like what's, um, what does that look like for you?

Fintan Costello: it's, it's the, look, it's the most important thing. Hands, like everything else pales in comparison. Like this is, is my job.

And the way I kind of think about it is, and like being a father is like. Helped me immensely. if you think of parent being a parent, parenting is role modeling,

So particularly in the younger years, like as they like case, as they teenage, they're more look external. But particularly in the younger years, like how you react to everything is how they react or how you behave is how they behave. Like it's just role modeling and you're like, oh, okay. So if I want him to be the best version of himself, I need to be the best version of myself. Right. And then you're like, I should probably exercise this, or whatever. Right? [00:43:00] Or like, I swear to, I swear too much. or why am I getting annoyed over this? This is

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: You, I, it made me very self-reflective,

it's part of, so I became a better person by being a father. and then I've just really enjoyed it.

It's just so much fun. Like he's just. A and he's just like, like, he's just funny. And just, if I can make him belly laugh, like I've had a great day, right? If I can just catch

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: where he Is just laughing hard, like I've just nailed it. So I've enjoyed that and like, whatever he's into, I'm into, right?

You, you wanna be a swimmer and we're training, you're training six times a week. Fine. I'll make sure you get there and we'll do the races. Like I've seen every swimming pool in the Netherlands at this point. Like just, fine, let's do it. I'll bring my laptop.

Leo: Yeah,

Fintan Costello: free wifi, I get some work done, it'll be wrapped.

Leo: yeah. Yeah.

Fintan Costello: Day. so whatever. And then whatever. Like all these's got other hobbies and stuff as well. So I, I really just, you know, down on that. And then we, something we've talked about as well, this crazy [00:44:00] stat around. When a kid leaves home to go to college or do whatever they're gonna do, that is the most time the child will spend with their parents for

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: Everybody's life.

Leo: Yep.

Fintan Costello: So he's 13, 13, 14. You know, we've got, I've got what, like four, five years? Right. How do I want that to be? Like, do I wanna look back and kind of go, ah, really? Like, I messed that up, or I was too busy, or I was, I was whatever. Um, and I don't want that to happen.

Leo: Yeah.

Fintan Costello: I'm getting a little bit, a little bit choke over here. The, so being really kind of cognizant of that, is important. And what I try and focus on is what I call happy memories. So I like, like I'm so, so structured. Like I'll say like, okay, it's once a month or every two months, we've gotta go do something or create some sort of do. could just be go for a meal or we do something at home or we go out and like, I know go. football game or whatever it is just like really focusing on happy [00:45:00] memories and just doing things together, is kind of what I just, so I don't let that slip or, because there's always something else to do or I'm tired, I'm gonna nap or whatever. so I, I spend, I deliberately plan that out very deliberately, which sounds a bit weird when I'm saying it, but it works for me. and he's a great kid, so something's working so.

Leo: well, I'm very proud of you. It's, uh, it's fantastic mate. I, I think. I think everybody should be doing that. I think everybody should be planning their time out like that because it's so easy to let it all slip by and, you know, to have your short term priorities override the thing that you could also do tomorrow.

So I think being intentional like you are is, is actually super important and I wish more people would do it. so thank you very much, uh, fin and thank you for, for your interview today. Really enjoyed the, enjoyed the podcast. Um.

Fintan Costello: inviting me. Appreciate that.

Thank you for joining me on The iGaming Leader Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, head over to iGamingLeader.com for more conversations [00:46:00] and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast.

I'm your host, Leo Judkins and I hope to see you next week.